Personally, I do not feel that it is appropriate to force my hearing friends to learn a decades’ worth of American Sign Language in a matter of minutes so they can understand the nonsense Mr. Carl Schroeder keeps spewing out on his vlogs. As a matter of fact, most of them are uneducated interpretations of what he imagines the world to be.
Also, he appears to be resistant to accept that this world is filled with non-ASL speakers. He refuses to realize that his demands that people learn American Sign Language in order to understand his “Art” (although that in itself is debatable) is unreasonable.
They label us insane, refusing to be inclusive, and a bit primitive because of people like Carl Schroeder.
Carl wrote in one of his entries: “Regarding translations: There is a natural tendency on the part of a translator to confuse literalism with accuracy. When consistently followed, this tendency can render any translation of ASL unintelligible. ASL syntax is not English syntax; and, as every translator must admit, the unit of meaning is the sentence, not the sign in ASL. Signs in ASL. . .does not always correspond exactly with the set attached to another term in English, it is impossible to translate from ASL to English simply by subtitling.”
I take personal offense to this. American Sign Language, unlike in Carl’s case, is my primary language. My first spoken word was in ASL. Like Nabokov, I happen to have a very comfortable level with both languages, English and American Sign Language and I am fluent in both. Fluent. My accuracy might not be impeccable but I do know it’s fucking close. Unlike what Carl said: Translation is possible. Carl just can’t do it. Pity. And to think in one of Carl’s entries, he compares himself to the famed and venerable figure in history: Socrates. When he wrote that entry, I decided against saying anything. It is common knowledge that Socrates himself never wrote any of his own dialogues—when in fact, it was Plato who did that. Also, for Carl to be able to read the words of Socrates—he would have to read a translated version. (insert gasp here)
YES! A translation! Socrates spoke in Ancient Greek (modern Greek is different) and Plato wrote in that. Did you “hear” Socrates speak, Carl? Isn’t that the original “art” form Socrates presented his philosophy in? Spoken Greek, not written, not a translated copy, no. Spoken Greek! “Deaf Socrates,” you say you are.
“Ha,” the Holy Saint replies.
During the last few days Jay and I have been sounding off with each other as to how to best compromise the transcript situation so that nobody would be offended. The initial stages of the discussion were quite heated—a lot of expectations were set and major compromises were necessary. For starters, I had wanted all VLOGs to be transcripted into English, Jay and several vloggers disagreed and wanted to leave out the “opt-out” option for the vloggers. Jay and I both agreed that this project is truly for the benefit of everyone. Carl, in his recent post, decided to write off transcripts as well. All these discussions, these experimentations between vloggers and myself to see if this is the best compromise for a solution that will enable non-ASL users and ASL users to have free exchange of ideas, information, values, and culture. I’m offering this service for free–I’m not asking vloggers to do anything but keep posting and Carl does not say “thank you but no thanks.” No, he has to be negative and his persistence in trying to reject anything that might increase awareness of ASL (subtitling, transcripts, etc) proves that Jane K. Fernandes was right. Deaf people do not want to be inclusive.
Well, Carl Schroeder, if you don’t want to compromise and try to be inclusive—including those who do not speak ASL but are part of the ASL community (i.e., hearing parents, siblings, early ASL learners), then you will not be included.
Progress does not move forward because of ignorance; no, it builds on knowledge, education, and adaptation to the times.
bisous,
Der Sankt
PS My next entry will be the debut of the VLOG translation website. Ridor has agreed to have all of his VLOGs translated and posted on the website; so that’s in the works. Also, Jay will post a VLOG in ASL explaining the fine details of this Transcript Project.
71 responses so far ↓
Dennis // February 14, 2007 at 12:05 am
Okay, I comment on all your stuff Ben, and I have to say something here. As one of your friends, one who hears and does not sign, I tend to agree with the fact that deaf people tend to be ‘clannish.’ That is to say they are very protective of their society. I don’t think that’s bad, but I do agree that isolationism IS bad. If you close yourselves off completely from the world, you lose out on so many perspectives, ideas, and thoughts that your society becomes emotionally and itellectually inbred. I am not regularly exposed to this group enough to say whether you are in danger of this or not, but I suggest caution.
Jay // February 14, 2007 at 12:15 am
Your post was quite powerful.
I do enjoy Carl, and respect his perspectives on things.
I do enjoy you and respect your perspectives on things equally.
The Internet is free for all; all should feel free.
Brian Riley // February 14, 2007 at 12:15 am
Der Sankt,
First of all, you don’t even understand what Carl is saying. Secondly, I don’t even think you know what you yourself are saying.
Your post resembles a stream-of-consciousness rant which makes very little sense at all. You seem to be grabbing insults out of thin air and applying them to Carl in ways that make no sense whatsoever.
Carl is simply pointing out that all translations are lacking in exactitude. You are interpreting his words literally in ways that he did not intend. You seem to be incapable of abstract thought.
Anyone that uses the f-word like you do is advertising to the world the fact that they have no credibility whatsover.
–Brian Riley, MA Linguistics
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 12:24 am
First of all Brian Riley, fuck you.
I understand completely what Carl is saying and I’m not writing essays here. It is exactly a stream of consciousness kind of writing.
You have a Masters in Linguistics? Must you advertise that? A sense of one-uppity being inserted here? Hah. You’re speaking to me–having a degree isn’t enough to prove that you’re better than me.
you, with a degree in lingusitics, are going to tell me that it is impossible to translate exactly? Uhmm?
J’ai un chat.
I have a cat.
Exact translation. word for word. come on.
as for my credibility–”Fuck” is part of the vernacular. This blog is my stream of consciousness–my place to put my thoughts.
again, fuck you, brian riley–thats my single abstract thought.
Brian Riley // February 14, 2007 at 12:33 am
You don’t have the faintest idea of what you are talking about.
Amy Cohen Efron // February 14, 2007 at 12:44 am
Brian… if you feel that Der Sankt don’t have the faintest idea what he was talking about.
Then, I put you a challenge here… please vlog your opinions and make yourself heard. If you have academic background and training in linguistics, then I believe you shouldn’t have any problem expressing your opinion on a vlog.
Would you be willing to take upon this challenge?
Please try not to use English prose to muddle, confuse, trick, demean, or belittle each other about politics of ASL, it is a full of irony here.
I strongly believe that expressing opinions, perspectives and determinations via ASL using vlogs WILL promote much more insight and understanding why there is a resistance of using transcription of ASL.
Should be voice over? We have interpreters for over 40 years since RID was established, and much longer before… and should ASL vlogs be voice interpreted? Or transcribed? Or dubbed? Or captioned? I do certainly understand that the translation process between two language will be lost somewhere and somehow. I do understand — so that means in my professional life for 15 years, interpreters who worked with me – and I have to assume that translation is not exact?
What about United Nations? What is an exact translation process? Maybe there is none.
The more we understand the debate itself, and let the general public decide based on the information presented.
Brian, are you willing?
Amy Cohen Efron
www.savegallaudet.org // February 14, 2007 at 1:11 am
Oh boy, not another supporter of audism and oppression of Deaf community. That is all I can say about this. – Ron -
Banjo // February 14, 2007 at 1:15 am
Amy,
Like you, I can understand the situation here. Personally, I think Der Sankt is committing a good deed by making the information found in ASL vlogs more accessible to the non-ASL users.
The reason why this isn’t a common practice within the hearing community is that they take everything for granted, they haven’t been exposed to our side or any other minorities.
While I can confirm it as a fact that it is a time-consuming progress to subtitle/caption a vlog or making transcripts. I subtitle all of my vlog entries and I made the choice to make them as accessible as possible with my knowledge.
I don’t believe it’s necessary to sacrifice the language of ASL for the captions/subtitles. I don’t believe I did. I paraphrase ASL into English in the post-production of the vlog. Believe it or not, it can get a little tricky at times when you try to do justice to what you said in ASL.
I’ve been told by some friends that the subtitles don’t do justice to my ASL, but of course they’re ASL users. I can understand why as ASL and English are two entirely different language. Paraphrasing can help, but it doesn’t give you the full experience.
It’s understandable why it would be distracting to them. I watch ASL vlogs without subtitles, if they provide it as an option, I usually disable it as I don’t need it. However, I think of the others.
That’s just the way I am, I always consider other people’s feelings. I don’t make any attempts to please them, but to provide and expand the access for everyone possible.
An exact translation is practically impossible in most cases. Only paraphrasing can come the closest when it come to converting ASL into English or the other way around.
I love ASL… just like I love English!
It’s fun being bilingual.
Dennis // February 14, 2007 at 1:15 am
Opression? Communicating with others is opression? You deserve to be all alone if you think that way. Have you considered forming a commune and making red kool-aid?
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 1:32 am
Hi:
I lack the technical vocabulary to make myself clear here, so be patient with me…
…but I wonder if it’s possible to come up with both a literal translation AND a “corrected” translation. Example: you can program a computer to recognize voice, right? Can you program one to recognize signs? It can’t be impossible. Mike McConnel and I were discussing this very thing at the blogging conference a few weeks ago… if you utilized the same motion tracking technology used in movie making, for example, it should be possible to teach a computer what is being signed, and what the corresponding English word is. That simply HAS to be possible. If it weren’t, nobody would be able to learn ASL, right?
Now, of course, the unaltered English translation you would end up with would logically come out in ASL grammatical structure… (if this didn’t happen, I for one would be curious as HELL to see what DID happen), but that doesn’t mean you didn’t technically come out with a literal “translation.” Does that make sense? You got one, but you might not have gotten one in the grammatical order of English.
Still, I’d pay good money for that literal translation. If we can get that, we should at least be able to come up with a different kind of program… one that takes English text in ASL grammatical structure and “translates” it into something “corrected” (something that matches English grammatical structure–and I want to be clear here that we’re not correcting the ASL, which is probably fine, we’re correcting the English in ASL grammatical modes).
I’m REALLY curious… what equipment would you need to do this? Does anyone know? And is what I’m trying to say… clear? It’s very hard to have this conversation if you don’t know much about what computers can actually do…
Chris
Joseph Pietro Riolo // February 14, 2007 at 1:42 am
I consider those who refuse to let their works be translated to other language as close to, but not necessarily equivalent to, “purists”. It is nothing new. It is a very ancient issue.
Personally, I believe that they are very mistaken in concealing the light (a symbol I choose for knowledge) emanating from their works and keep the world in dark about their fine works. History is full of examples of how translation of works can enlighten the whole world. A fine example is the Scriptures/Bible.
(As a side note for those who do not know about this, the word “fucking” is not necessarily related to sexual intercourse. It is also used as an intensifier, meaning to intensify or put great emphasis on the next word. I learned the secondary meaning from my deaf friend who could hear well with hearing aids and explained to me how it was used by hearing people in colloquial way.)
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
Banjo // February 14, 2007 at 1:49 am
Everybody, please take a step back and take a breather…
• Hypocrisy
• Reverse Discrimination
• Access Resistance
I do believe every vlogger has the right to make a choice on whether they want to caption their vlogs or not. However, objecting to transcripts, it just don’t give off the vibe you’re hoping for.
It’s an entirely different issue. I have no problem with vloggers not captioning their vlogs, hearing or deaf. It doesn’t matter, but I do cringe when one object to captions/subtitles and transcripts. It reeks of hypocrisy and it’s a form of reverse discrimination.
We are advocating for more access and rights for the deaf. Yet we take it all back when it come to our language and our culture.
When it’s being offered for free, it shouldn’t be taken for granted. There are people out there who are willing to volunteer their time to break down a barrier or two. Der Sankt is one of them, but I can see why he’s becoming more frustrated because of the vloggers’ objections and restricting the access to the language of ASL So I’ll forgive him for his language. I’ve seen worse.
As I’ve said before, ASL can be only paraphrased into English. Never an exact translation.
I do think we are doing ourselves a favour by letting them know that it’s a real language, not just a bunch of monkeys making hand gestures.
You wouldn’t believe how many e-mails I’ve gotten about my vlogs being accessible. I’ve even had people from Sweden and some other countries giving me positive feedbacks.
Therefore, I became more motivated to continue with my decision to subtitle my vlogs. Even though I know it’s just paraphrased.
I’m not insisting nor requesting that all the vloggers caption their vlogs.
However, I am insisting that it remain a choice one can choose to make without facing resistance/backlash from the others. So far, I haven’t faced any criticism for captioning my vlogs which I’m quite pleased to report. I don’t know about the others. My experience as a blogger/vlogger has been quite extraordinary so far.
If someone wish to make a transcript, let him/her. It’ll be even better if they share the transcript with the vloggers to make sure they concur with the translation.
Boy, what a long-winded comment… and a second one at that!
Joseph Pietro Riolo // February 14, 2007 at 1:54 am
Mr. Chris Heuer’s comment reminded me of the information that I learned from one of my software engineering courses. The professor mentioned the researches that were done by Thad Starner. One of the researches that he did covered the ASL recognizer. Brief information about it can be found at http://www-static.cc.gatech.edu/~thad/031_research.htm. I did not read any of the publications (no time
). I thought I should mention it for anyone’s interest.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
Dennis // February 14, 2007 at 1:54 am
Bravo!
www.savegallaudet.org // February 14, 2007 at 1:57 am
Bravo, Banjo!
Albert W // February 14, 2007 at 2:10 am
dont use strong word F…. you! We, from different background and ages, all read the vlogs with or without transcribes. Their choices… our choices are to read them or not. Carl is very comfortable with his choice. His major is English. He is very bright. He has good reasons not to do it. You can do whatever you want. You have good reasons to do it. We respect you as well as we respect Carl or Brian. Hate seeing too much frictions among us. We are in a small world. Keep vlogging…
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 2:11 am
Hi Banjo, Joseph:
Still, though. Exact translation or not, paraphrasing or not…
It shouldn’t be THAT hard to program a computer to recognize signs in isolation and signs in use. And if you’ve got that stored away (ps that alone could revolutionize a filing system for ASL vlogged information) and program the computer to print out corresponding English words or phrases, you can make great use of that technology. For one thing, the programming info you use has direct applications to teaching literacy in Deaf Ed classrooms, and two, having SOMETHING, some kind of printout, is better than having nothing. Because you can build on an uncorrected translation. You can develop better and better programs to “paraphrase” what’s being said.
And if you can do it one way (ASL to English), you can do it in reverse. Imagine what THAT kind of technology would do for Deaf people… you hold up your Blackberry, and what your boss says gets signed to you by a virtual interpreter.
How many years away are we from developing that? Fifteen tops? Why can’t it be done?
Michele // February 14, 2007 at 2:13 am
I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps it will help A LOT if you (Ben) can make a vlog of what you want to do, explain your services and then see how we react.
I also suspect that when one translates ASL into written English, it is a very sore point for many deaf people because a lot of them struggle with English and they feel oppressed when a translation written in English is in front of their eyes. This is my interpretation. I have never done a vlog and I don’t know how I would feel if someone did a translation on me but I would feel very disappointed or embarrassed or upset if they got some things wrong if I was trying to express myself and it did not come out very well in the English translation.
On the other hand, it will help people who do not know anything about ASL to see that we are a group of intelligent people like one commentator said above.
Ben, is it possible for you to do a vlog on this??
Banjo // February 14, 2007 at 2:16 am
Chris, that’s a good question.
I think the biggest issue with the software is the regional/territorial signs. Not only that, a lot of people has different dialects when it come to ASL.
I don’t think there’s a lot of interest in such a software. It would be great if it was advanced enough to recongize most of the signs in ASL. Would I use it if it was nearly 100% accurate?
Definitely.
Though the real question is… will it ever make it to the consumer market or end up in a TTY-style market where it’s $1,500 to buy a software?
Hmm-mm.
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 2:20 am
Actually, chris, my hearing friends saw the website i developed for the transcripts and they volunteered to transcribe spoken English into transcripts upon the requests of Deaf viewers..
Another hearing friend of mine has offered to write a federal grant so that I can *PAY* my volunteers for the work that they do. In general, my hearing counterparts feel that yes, this is going to be one of the most successful projects online–as long as the roles can be reversed, meaning the hearing vlogs will be transcripted into english.
I might have an editor for this transcript to ensure that the English is accurate. Perhaps I’ll have someone who can understand ASL as well as English to double check on the translations and make proper adjustments.
Like I said on the website, the project is still in its infantile stages. For anyone who would dare to attack a baby, it’s pretty low…for someone who feels like a mom to their baby, I feel that my project even though it might be crude…
still deserves a place considering the fact that the project goes out of its way to accomodate TWO different cultures, values, and morales…The only side that is claiming unfairness is on the Deaf side–Carl’s type of people.
My hearing friends know I’m not like him. How is that fair to other hearing people if Carl is the only Deaf person that they know…we, the Deaf, do not think like this…
just people like carl.
and I have never once put English above ASL…what I understood was that English is the language of the Majority! the majority!
My only goal is to allow my Deaf conterparts the ability to have an audience amongst my hearing counterparts.
If you don’t want to take part of this, make yourself known here and now. If I have to deal with otherslike Carl, let it be known that I, personally, will take the time to sit down and read their arguements and make my counterattacks.
rien des bisous pour vous,
Der Sankt
drmzz // February 14, 2007 at 2:22 am
Whoa, didn’t expect you to take this route, but hey, you’re in it now, LOL. Finally, feedback.
Hmm, a realist vs. a purist, let me get my popcorn.
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 2:30 am
Hey Dersankt:
Sure, yes, I realize you’re talking about human volunteers to do this… and I realize I’m going off the point by talking about technology that does the same thing. Then again maybe I’m not, cuz what if you developed a company of people who do this, and their jobs were made 10,000 times faster by software that did most of the translating for them? The business that could be generated from that would be unbelievable, especially if the translation process could be done both ways… you could have full time readers reading English text into ASL vlogs…
…y’know? I just wonder what would be needed to get that done….
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 2:35 am
I didn’t mean to be fierce. I was like enough is enough. I mean it’s okay for a Deaf purist to have his thoughts. Like Orwells’ “1984″
We don’t allow the thought to sit in the Martyr’s brian–no, we make them ours and completely ours…when big brother say 2 plus 2 is five. You will absolutely believe it to be true when you answer “yes, it is five.”
It is then, when we kill you. We are not to allow that thought to sit in your brain. For you will immediately become a Martyr and destroy the very foundations Big Brother tried to achieve (roughly paraphrasing..I do recall that section of the book to be a good 30-60 pages long).
According to the Big Brother, there will be no other language besides Newspeak. No other news except the ones regulated by Big Brother.
Carl and his crusade for ASL is beginning to seem like Big Brother against English.
Seriously.
Grow up.
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 2:41 am
I’m tryuing to set up this project like the project established by Gutenberg Book Project. Every book published that expired its copyright is now for free online. There are volunteers who will type out a book for them, it’s a global thing.
i like to think this project is bigger than just myself. My hearing friends want a part in this, a few of my Deaf friends do as well. I’m hoping this will launch into a global scale.
The truth be told, I refuse to allow Deaf militants like Carl Schroeder destroy the bridge i’m trying to build between Hearing and Deaf culture. If you want to participate…
I’d be more than glad to set up a page on my website(htp://www.geocities.com/vlogtranscripts/) naming every volunteer and their short bio. I respect every contribution and every effort to promote both cultures without rejecting the other.
der sankt
Bacon // February 14, 2007 at 3:00 am
Wow, there are many good debates among the vloggers’s viewpoint. All of them surely make me hmmmm.. I will start my Vlog very soon. It will be very challenge to be transcripted. I am fair in English. I might be wrong. I had faced some interpreters who can’t interpeter what I talked about. Only fewest who could. It will be interesting challenge for the transcripters. Mostly of the peers might not be interested to learn from me but some of peers who will love to learn about my subjects. Hold your horse pants till my Vlog come up. It will be Bacon something like that. I still tweak my thought on what best title would be.
Dennis Bacon
Ockham's Razor // February 14, 2007 at 3:08 am
As always Brian Riley is on the wrong side of the argument. Carl rarely knows what he’s talking about. Lord, have you seen his “linguistics” vlogs?
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 3:08 am
to answer Chris Heuer’s question:
http://babelfish.altavista.com could pretty much translate the English word into the French. let’s think about it, I asked it to translate a simple thing: “I love you.”
il m’a dit que >.
Si vous le croyez que ce n’est jamais sans l’erreur; ah, mais, vous seriez étonnée de voir que ce n’est pas vrai.
En Français, c’est > pas > C’est la raison pour ma decision d’utiliser des vrais personnes. Vous, c’est seulement pour gens plus d’un; alors, pour une personne, on parle >
Try translating that with a computer.
Der Sankt
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 3:27 am
Hiya Banjo:
From a technical point of view, I don’t see why regional signs should matter. It’s a relatively simple question of memory files, isn’t it? I mean, you hire various signers… let’s stay start in America to get all of those regional dialects. Pretty much no matter what they sign, they’re either gonna make a sign in isolation, or a sign in use with other signs. Nonetheless it’s all motion, and all you need to do is teach the computer to recognize patterns of motion. it can store those patterns as videotaped clips or else motion-tracked clips in its memory, and then compare what it’s seeing. Depending on how much memory is used, it should be able to scan thousands of files relatively quickly.
Plus you can break down the idea into various applications. You’d have to develop the technology to track the motions, right? Hollywood is already using this to trace actual movements into computer generated characters… well… a signer would be using highly defined motions, yes? So there’s a market for technology that can track motions that are that precise… and that’s just the tip of hte iceberg. A company that did this would more or less just have to sell the application to as many different fields as possible and they’d be in business.
But you’d have to develop it first. That’s the kicker.
Banjo // February 14, 2007 at 3:37 am
Chris, I agree.
I’m no computer programmer, but I can see where they can achieve this. Movies like ‘Monster House’, ‘The Polar Express’ and the upcoming movie, ‘Beowulf’ all used the motion capture technology.
All they have to do is study the technology used in these movies and if they cannot re-create it without violating the copyrighted patent, they can always ask for a license to use it and tweak it into an application. If the request is denied, then they’ll have to go underground.
I’ll like to see who would develop it and sell it in the price range of $100 to $300 rather than above $1,000 for the consumers. I can’t imagine someone paying more than $500 for it.
It’s quite an intriguing concept, no doubt about that.
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 3:40 am
Ce n’est pas vrai, mon ami, Chris.
Si vous prenez le temps de traduire ce morceau de français en anglais– tu vait t’étonné que le traduires de le site n’est jamais de tradurire correctement. Jamais.
Par exemple: si vous prenez le quote > en français, on peut de voir que le site vous dit qu’en français c’est > Malheuresement, ce n’est pas vrai. Non, jamais, mon ami, si vous avez un personne avec vous, alors il faut que vous dissez >
Try translating that through a computer. Tell me if my rationale for using actual people to translate from language to langauge is a bit uneconomical.
Personally, i think it is much cheaper to have volunteers and high percentage of accuracy than to have machines for quanitity and get low percentage of accuracy.
Der Sankt
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 3:46 am
Hi Banjo,
Exactly. I can’t believe that companies couldn’t get permission (or BUY permission) to use the motion capture technology already in existence and the storage mediums used to save motion-data. In fact I think that’s the easiest part. The harder part is producing that exact translation of English text in ASL-grammatical structure. But even that… not that hard. Just time-consuming. Lots of programming necessary.
The toughest part would be paraphrasing programs. If Dersankt can do it at all (and there’s no reason to believe he can’t, since this is essentially what an intepreter does every day), then it should be possible to create programs that do more or less the same thing, and you could immediately sell that in software versions that you could upgrade as you go along. I don’t think you’d get stuck in the $1500 market cuz we already have hardward out there that plays movies, shows text, etc. This’d be more of a question of software. You simply download it into your Blackberry or whatever, and you’re set. For 300 bucks, you go to work carrying the same blackberry you’d go to work carry ANYWAY, and when your boss wants something, you hold it up and presto there’s an interpreter on your screen. Shoot, and think about phones? Phone rings, you hold the blackberry up to the mouthpiece, and the interpreter signs what’s said… if you had this hooked into your computer you could sign back and the software would do what VRS does now.
Hi! // February 14, 2007 at 3:48 am
“I do think we are doing ourselves a favour by letting them know that it’s a real language, not just a bunch of monkeys making hand gestures.” — Banjo
” I am insisting that it remain a choice one can choose to make without facing resistance/backlash from the others.” –Banjo
Amen!
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 3:50 am
Hi Dersankt:
Yep, agreed… right NOW it’s more feasible and cheaper to get human volunteers. No argument from me. Still. Fifteen years down the line. The APPLICATIONS for this…. mind-boggling. Especially when you consider that we’re already hard up trying to find Deaf Ed teachers who can sign well, you know? And the interpreting industry is strained as it is, and there are a lot of companies that are chomping at the bit to get away with breaking ADA requirements because they think that hiring a deaf person AND an interpreter is akin to hiring two people for one job. Well, this kinda technology lets terps be terps AND it lets companies hire just deaf people with no bigger of an “accomodation” than just a little Blackberry.
Sorry, though, to hijack your blog like this. Am just excited about all of the ideas…
Jay // February 14, 2007 at 3:57 am
Dictionary.com Translator
In French:
Ce n’est pas vrai, mon ami, Chris.Si vous prenez le temps de traduire ce morceau de français en anglais– tu vait t’étonné que le traduires de le site n’est jamais de tradurire correctement. Jamais.Par exemple: si vous prenez le quote > en français, on peut de voir que le site vous dit qu’en français c’est > Malheuresement, ce n’est pas vrai. Non, jamais, mon ami, si vous avez un personne avec vous, alors il faut que vous dissez >
In English:
It is not true, my friend, Chris.Si you take time to translate this piece of French into English you vait astonished you that the traduires of the site is never of tradurire correctly. Jamais.Par example: if you take the quote > in French, one can see that the site says that in French it is > Malheuresement, it to you is not true. Not, never, my friend, if you have a person with you, then it is necessary that you dissez >
Hmm, just one translator I found — maybe there are better ones out there — and for free… but translating ASL???
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 4:01 am
Holy crap!
Jeez, see what I mean? We don’t KNOW–almost none of us–what’s out there… what can already be done! And now Jay just went and did what Dersankt was implying would be tough to do… but it was just done!
Think about it… boom, just like that, you click on something and there’s your translation. The accuracy seems pretty high to me, too, even though I don’t speak French…
jamie berke // February 14, 2007 at 4:04 am
I never thought I would say this but…three cheers for ridor!
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 4:06 am
Hell, just found the beginning answers to some of my own questions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_capture
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 4:14 am
Here’s another one… seems like this is already under development:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2003-08-04-glove_x.htm
If the link doesn’t work go to yahoo.com and type “sign language glove” into the search bar… the article is the third one down, but it’s in wikipedia too…
Alan // February 14, 2007 at 4:19 am
Just a though there– I was wondering–why are we worried about subtitling our ASL vlogs and making sure hearing people have access to what we have to say? Do hearing people caption their messages on youtube, etc? I haven’t seen one that’s captioned yet. Aren’t they oppressing us by not doing that? Should they caption all the videos sent out on youtube?
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 4:39 am
Like I said earlier, my hearing friends are willing to transcribe hearing peoples’ vlogs into written english.
Only if you have a request, email to vlogtranscripts@gmail.com within 48 hours the vlog will be translated. Whether it be in English or ASL is irrelevant.
just ask. I opened the service for all. now it’s time for all to come and simply ask
Ask away and I promise you to try my best to make things happen. seriously
There isn’t anything that can really stop me. I’m in New York. The world revolves around New York, sorry for the ego.
der sankt
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 4:45 am
I spoke french to prove an example. Jay tried translating that through a computer–a machine and he did not get the complete translation.
The same will apply o nthat machine..perfection would take generations, seriously. until perfection is achieved, i’m going to stick to next to that–human translators.
der sankt
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 4:50 am
Hi Der Sankt (what does that mean by the way?)
Approx how much time does it take to caption a blog with about two minutes worth of speaking on it…?
Banjo // February 14, 2007 at 4:52 am
Chris, that will have to be determined by the amount of signs you use in 2 minutes.
On average, probably around 15 to 30 minutes with previewing included.
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 4:54 am
No, I mean… a hearing person’s blog that uses voice… assume a normal speaking rate (talking the whole time)… Der Sankt did offer to caption hearing peoples’ blogs too, remember…
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 4:58 am
Berke–
I’ve decided to dedicate this comment for you alone.
Thank you.
Thank you, again. You have helped me prove that personal beliefs and conflicts do not interferre with the bigger picture. Our children deserve a better life not a political one.
Thank you!
You have my highest regards, you and Ridor both. I would have never known that you guys would put your differences aside and agree to bridge a connection with the world above that.
Thank you. wow
I am truly touched.
Ben Vess
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 5:01 am
for ASL vlogs under five minutes, it takes approximately about 15 minutes for me to translate it into an English transcript.
I’m sure for a hearing person the same applies. I have hearing friends who are offering to transcribe spoken vlogs for the Deaf
This project, apparently, is going to work both ways. ASL into writing and English into writing
der sankt
Brian Riley // February 14, 2007 at 5:14 am
Amy,
My main purpose in making that first post above was to point out that Ben was being incomprehensible. He didn’t even understand what Carl was saying in the first place.
Obvioulsy Carl believes there is a proper time and place for translations, since he uses interpreters and reads books from other languages that are translated.
It’s outrageous for Ben to smear Carl the way he did.
I have translated important vlogs for the protest before, because there was a clear-cut purpose. Obviously, it would be a good thing to increase access and communication to other people who are not familiar with ASL, but on the other hand, it would be even better if they took the time to learn ASL. If they really want to be serious partners in the debate about deaf ed, then they should be learning ASL and not relying on translations and captions.
They need to have more than just a superficial understanding. They need to get deeply involved in the culture in order to have deep insights about the culture.
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 5:33 am
Hello All:
Obviously, as Brian pointed out, we’d want signers EVERYWHERE (in Deaf Ed, in interpreting, etc) who had a deep understanding of the culture and excellent signing skills, yes. But it’d also be a cool thing to have captioners on hand, or else have everything already captioned, or captioning technology out there translating ASL into printed English/spoken English and vice versa. Maximum accessibility. So long as the original data in ASL is not altered in any way, I think it’s a great idea. Because if the original ASL text remains intact, then people can argue about the accuracy of the translation, and that is what will keep good translators in businesss and drive bad translators out of business.
There are further applications to this. Imagine that Deaf Ed at large just STOPPED trying to force deaf children to learn English and instead focused on teaching them grammattically correct ASL. With captioning/translation services out there like this, such a student could join the workforce and sign reports into the camera on his or her computer, and have those reports translated into English. Bilingual literacy in this process would almost take care of itself, because it’s kind of hard to be completely fluent in one language and know what one wants to say, and yet not pick up “how it’s said” in another language. The biggest problem we all face right now is that there’s a widespread fear of ASL out there, especially amongst hearing parents, and so much time is lost pursuing other options that may not be beneficial (such as CIs), that by the time the parents are saying “okay, let’s give ASL a try,” the language window has closed.
I say that if we start removing the psychology that makes parents think ASL can’t be used in “the real world” or “the English speaking world,” then we’ll start removing their fear of ASL.
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 6:09 am
Brian Riley,
you are getting on the last of my nerves, i am tired of your bullshit (a word approved by the FCC to be broadcasted on air). if you want to be an idiot, thats fine; but, do so in your own blog, for mine has no room for such nonsense.
since you made it a point to indicate that you have a MASTER’S in lingustics, pray tell, i must implore you, where did you get your degree so that i can properly petition them to withdraw their document they issued upon you on your graduation day. your comments prove that you do not rightfully deserve that title.
but i digress, there are a lot of incocompentent people out there with degrees that state otherwise. in a sarcastic tone, of course my friend, i must saya youre the first i have met and pardon me for not knowing how to behave. it is, after all, my first time, indeed.
since your credibility as a linguist is debatable, i am going to give you a chance to redeem yourself. asa alinguist–an incompentent one that us, you are going to tell me that Oprah was being superficial when she selected war and peace as part of her book club? you dare to insult the only influential literary force who has never really written a book?
but of course, i must remind myself what an idiot you are and not to overestimate you.
are you familiar with the works of Poe?? did you knowhe died a drunk in the gutters of Baltimore for three days before anyone found him? are you familiar with the work of Charles Baudelaire? do you even know any other languages? if it werent for Baudelaire, Poe wouldnt exist.
whether Poe agreed to the translations wll be one of history’s greatest mysteries; however, french saved the English works of Poe.
how’s my credibility now, brian riley??
fuck you,
der sankt
dersankt // February 14, 2007 at 6:28 am
tchris
im warning you now youre starting to sound stupid. i guarantee you that generations yet to come would thank me for being persistent in asl taking on a written form and until then let english preserve at the best it can american sign language.
history has proven again and again that absolutely nothing can truly be preserved unless it is on paper. the same goes for music in spite of the advancements of technology.
chinese is the most spoken native laguage in the world. if i could i would translate asl into chinese. it isnt a matter of which language is better but a matter of accessibility.
brian riley and carl schroeder’s philosophy of people learning ASL is unrealistic. again, history has proven that unrealistic ideas (such as idiots like Brian Riley and Carl Schroeder) never will survive. think about it, religion is at its deathbed. eugenics faded into nonexistence. the people of the world finally accepted the fact the earth is round.
be smart. dont associate with unrealistic ideas. it will be your downfall.
brian riley, may god have mercy on your namesake when history writes your character. it isnt your kids’ fault you are medival.
der sankt
moi // February 14, 2007 at 6:55 am
Hi,
I am so enthusiastic about the idea of accessibility, and this is exciting, as long as translation is done with authors’ permission. It is so cool how hearing people are willing to type transcripts of spoken English videos… please do thank your friends for me! Wow.
One thing, though, that bothers me about this whole thing is how much of a furor there is about ASL vlogs needing to be translated into English for accessibility. Um, you may not be able to answer this yourself, Der Sankt, and this is actually intended to be a question for everyone out there, but I don’t get why the same outcry doesn’t exist for providing ASL translation of English blog entries. There is very little mention of this significant barrier to accessibility. It doesn’t seem fair to me. Is it not a well-documented fact that more deaf people are literate in ASL (defining literacy as ability to function in the given language as well as discuss heavy, deep topics in the language) than they are in English? Could we not make the argument that we are actually catering to a minority within the deaf community and ignoring the majority?
I don’t want to shoot this project down, nor do I want to burden one person and his group of volunteers with a Herculean task. But why is no one acting on this? Why is this being, for the most part, ignored, while people rush to accomodate the majority culture and those who do not use the minority language? Would not providing ASL translations of English blog entries go a long way toward reaching a wider audience within the deaf community? I do not get it.
I have just one request for the bloggers/vloggers/readers/viewers out there – please ensure that *both* languages receive equal respect and make sure there is appropriate effort to make information accessible for those who are more literate in ASL than in English as well as those who are English-language dominant. Transcribing ASL vlogs by those who are willing to allow it is a worthy effort, and the same effort should be expended toward signing English blog entries so that we are hitting all segments of the deaf community (those that can access English and/or ASL at least).
Again, kudos to you, Der Sankt, for making this project happen!
Grant W. Laird, Jr. Blog » ASL Vlog Stuff // February 14, 2007 at 12:05 pm
[...] thing, I think it’s great that these people like Der Sankt who offer their volunteer time to create transcript for ASL vlog as long as they said OK. I [...]
Aidan Mack // February 14, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Hi Ben-
I don’t mean to attack or disrespecting you. I respect your thoughts but I feel I need to address some comments that you said in your blog.
“Personally, I do not feel that it is appropriate to force my hearing friends to learn a decades’ worth of American Sign Language in a matter of minutes so they can understand the nonsense Mr. Carl Schroeder keeps spewing out on his vlogs.”
All my hearing friends know American Sign Language (ASL). If you feel that it’s only way that you have to force your friends to learn ASL then they aren’t your true friends.
“Also, he appears to be resistant to accept that this world is filled with non-ASL speakers.”
You appear to be resistant to accept that this world is filled with non-English speakers.
“They label us insane, refusing to be inclusive, and a bit primitive because of people like Carl Schroeder.”
Who do you hang out with? Seems like you hang out with a small group of very negative people. I work at NBC as an internship. I work as a production assistant for major film productions. I attend School of Visual Arts. Most of them don’t think that way.
Yes, there were a few people who have some audism attitude. Well, there are a few people who have racism, sexism, and ageism attitudes.
Yesterday, I was so inspired by so many hearing students asking me if they can work on my productions.
Dennis quoted, “Okay, I comment on all your stuff Ben, and I have to say something here. As one of your friends, one who hears and does not sign, I tend to agree with the fact that deaf people tend to be ‘clannish.’”
Dennis, what give you right that you labeled Deaf people tend to be ‘Clannish’ while you never took a class relating to Deaf Studies?
What about Black and Latino community that they are ‘clannish’ and yet they are hearing?
I am Deaf person who uses ASL everyday and yet I work and hang out with Hearing people 99 percents of my time.
Dennis- if you are a true friend of Ben, I suggest you at least to take two classes of signing and Deaf culture/history. Ben worked very hard to be fluent in English so he could communicate with Hearing people and etc… A friendship is about two-way streets.
Deaf people like me work very hard to be fluent in English. I attend my tutor twice a week. It takes me hours and hours to perfect my English grammar.
I do not have much time to translate from ASL to English. I work and attend school. I am sorry that I couldn’t be able to add the subtitle or transcript so everyone would be able to access to my vlog. If I have time, I will add transcript or subtitles. I think it’s important for everyone to access to our vlogs. If anyone wants to offer to do it for me, please feel free to ask but under a circumstance, I am the ones who make a final approval.
Again, We must respect people’s wish if they want to add subtitle or not on their vlog.
May I make a request that you please stop using profanity words because children do read your blog? Two students from middle school came to me and told me about your blog. I could tell that you are a very brilliant person that has talents in writing. With your intellect and talent, you can do better than cursing at other people.
By the way, it took me almost an hour and fifteen min to write and to revise grammar and yet it is not perfect English. Imagine about adding subtitle or transcript on my vlog.
Aidan
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 1:21 pm
I’M starting to sound stupid? Yikes! Well, okay then, my only recourse of action obviously is to get out of your way here, so you can get on with the task with pursuing your ultimate objective (with the help of a few–as of yet unpaid–volunteers): transcribing an spoken-English vlog into printed Chinese, and on paper, yet.
To, you know. Make them more accessible.
To deaf people.
(ps yes I’m deliberately misunderstanding and giving you a hard time here, but I just ENJOY seeing the “F” word in print so much–it has such artistic FORM to it!)
wildstarryskies // February 14, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Actually, I would like to volunteer some time adding transcripts/subtitles to ASL vlogs. I’m fully bilingual – proficient in the use of idioms and sayings in both English and ASL. Translating from one language to another is one of my most valued skills. I always thought, “I could do some real good by doing this”.
Just let me know.
wildstarryskies // February 14, 2007 at 1:25 pm
I meant for ASL vlogs. I’m deaf, so I can’t do the spoken English stuff.
Ockham's Razor // February 14, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Brian Riley’s Linguistics degree? Why, it’s from Gallaudet, of course!
cali // February 14, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Ockham’s Razor, mind not disparaging Gallaudet, please? It may have its flaws, but there are good programs and good people there. My undergrad program there was incredibly rigorous. And by the way, I could’ve easily gone to Berkeley. I got in easily. So take it from someone who knows Gally and from someone who could’ve easily gone to a top-notch school. Gallaudet is what students make of it. And no more blanket bashing, please. Thanks.
Aidan Mack // February 14, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Wildstarryskies- May I have your e-mail address? I would like to try and to see if we could work together by writing transcript for my vlogs.
Ockham’s Razor- I must agree with Cali.
I attend The School of Visual Arts. The School of Visual Arts is one of top film schools all over world. I was the first Deaf student in Film Department. They recognized my English language as my second language; they got me an English tutor. They knew that I would be one of great filmmakers after I graduate. That’s how much my school cares about me and believe in me as a filmmaker. What’s more, they only accept 100 students every year.
I love Gallaudet University. I am aware about its flaw but every school has its flaw. They are struggling with current students where they think everything is evolved them. My friend who works as a professor at FIT in NYC, she is worried about current students finding jobs after they graduate. It is because they wont get a job if they keep it up with their attitudes.
Aidan
drmzz // February 14, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Berke thanking Ridor? Too funny. You’re thanking the wrong person(s), girl. Also, Ben thanking Berke? Gasp! This is one wild lovefest gone awry. “ASL Sign of Tent City” is transcribed? Hilarious! Ridor must be jet-lagged or you promised him something really good. I get it now. I say, no thanks.
Dennis // February 14, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Aiden Mack – “Dennis, what give you right that you labeled Deaf people tend to be ‘Clannish’ while you never took a class relating to Deaf Studies? ” and other quotes.
I say this because I have had conversations with many deaf people about the subject. This is my opinion. I actually went to Gally and asked several of Bens friends about it. I also asked “If you could have your deafness taken away, would you? Why or why not?” The responses were a mixed bag of yes and no, for a variety of reasons. My comment wasn’t meant to insult or degrade, it was meant as an observation and a warning.
Let me reiterate it for you. Deaf people seem, IN MY OPINION, to want to keep themselves closed off from the hearing world.
I don’t feel the need, as a hearing person, to learn ASL. I want to, for Ben, but I don’t NEED to. The world caters to me by default because I can hear. Whether or not this is right and proper I cannot say. It’s just the state of things.
The deaf community is more than welcome to stay closed off in it’s own social environment as far as I am concerned. However, if you cannot communicate with the majority of the world, or choose not to for whatever reason, you will be the ones to suffer. Again this is my opinion. Hearing people have dominance, they will only learn ASL, or any other language for that matter, if they have to. I have chosen to because I like to talk to Ben and I think it would be easier for both of us, however, I have no other reason.
So, to sum it up. If the deaf community chooses to remain closed off to the hearing world, they will. The hearing world sees no immediate need to learn ASL to get along with their lives. What I suggested, way up at the top of this massive mound of babbling, was that it would be in your own best interests to communicate. That’s it. Nothing more.
Chris Heuer // February 14, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Well Dennis, speaking for myself only, I kind of “walk the line.” I can speak rather well–that’s just by chance since I didn’t go deaf until later on in life–and my reading and writing skills are fine. But I won’t lip read, for example, unless the situation is an emergency for the other person. This isn’t because I can’t read lips, and it’s not because I’m “clannish.” It’s becaues I’m only willing to go halfway up to the line. If a person wants to hire me, I expect them to write notes to me at the very least, and if they’re the kind of company that can afford a full time interpreter, all the better. But I will not bounce around like some kind of puppy trying to do all of the work. I would rather go–and I have gone–and work in stinking factories and do hard manual labor if it meant that people would communicate to me by writing notes instead of having someone come up and insist that I lip read. Now to be fair you didn’t specify lip reading… you specified communication. And I agree that both people need to learn to communicate equally… both need to do an equal amount of work, in other words. And if a person or a company isn’t willing to do that, I don’t need them. Nor do I necessarily suffer for it. I’m doing what I enjoy doing, and there are a lot of hearing people out there who can’t say the same. It may be true that the world carters to hearing people by default, but there’s a catch… in a room with just you and me, it doesn’t matter what the world thinks. If you want to have any meaningful involvement in my life, I eventually expect you to learn to sign. If you’re not gonna do that, okay… more power to you… have a great life… but I’m not gonna be in it.
In other words, what a lot of hearing people would consider “suffering” is actually something of a virtue… because if you don’t settle for anything less than 50-50 (so far as doing the work of communication is concerned) then in a very real sense you’re not lying to yourself and pretending people care enough about you to learn to communicate with you… when they obviously don’t.
Just my opinion.
Aidan Mack // February 14, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Dennis,
I know many Deaf people and myself do not close off its own social environment to hearing community.
You do generalize us to a very few Deaf people who want to close its own social enivronment to hearing people. I know too many Deaf people at Gallaudet University and they aren’t what you defined them.
Your inputs made me wonder if you have your own negative energy that draw the negative people to you. So you must be talking to a very few negative Deaf people at Gallaudet.
Aidan
RLM // February 14, 2007 at 6:07 pm
First of all, Carl Schroeder is a respectable ASL instructor and former well-liked English professor. Carl know his own stuff. Please restraint from sacarasing and dissecting Carl Schroeder with name-calling.
Brian Riley surely know the linguistics of the Deaf/deaf at heart.
I am not taking any sides. I will discuss more about the questionable transalation of another language to our language in its accuracy on my upcoming blog/vlog.
DeSakarant, I would love to see the evidence of the French saved Edgar Allen Poe’s literacy works from their translation. That is very news to me!
You could see why the Charlie Chaplin silent films were so popular in almost all the countries without subtitles. People of all the borders and nationalities able to appreciate and laugh with Charlie Chaplin the Tramp character.
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
dennisthemenance // February 14, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Dennis, so you based your worldview of deaf community upon meeting a few deaf people? Right!!!! Ignorance rears its ugly head and that’s you buddy. We have to fight for access and rights to participate in society. Take up deaf history will ya. You can thanks oralism for that.
The One and Only Ridor // February 15, 2007 at 1:27 am
Whoa — I was in favor of ASL translation mainly because I want to ensure that hearing people who do not use ASL gets a glimpse of what I was trying to say.
After getting the average of 15 to 20 emails from hearing people asking me to tell them what I said on youtube.com, I realized that there are people out there who wanted to know what you said.
To me, it takes few to build a stronger relationship between two cultures — by rejecting the translation and further isolating ASL in its own pool of blood will not be beneficial to both worlds.
This is the reason why I told Ben to go ahead and translate my vLOGs — I did not have the luxury of time to do that, but he can — and I trust Benis to do the excellent job.
And so far, he’s doing good job.
Cheers,
R-
Ockham's Razor // February 15, 2007 at 4:03 am
I too attended (and graduated from) Gally. Interesting that you guys took my “gally of course” comment as an insult to gally…. is that because of Riley? Anyone who knows this guy knows he was a LOUD participant in the protest. His degree is from Gallaudet. How is that an insult to gally?
cheers
dersankt // February 15, 2007 at 5:43 am
LOL!
Here’s what it is supposed to be. If your heart belongs to Gallaudet, you can insult it all you want. We all know, your love for Gallaudet trumps everything else.
If you aren’t from Gallaudet. Say one bad thing about the University and our claws are retracted.
Be prepared to be attacked…
But then again–for you, hell, it’s okay.
For Chris–once again, to put a smile on your face, i’ll say it:
Fuck!
Der Sankt
kaybee // February 15, 2007 at 5:26 pm
fuckity fuck! – hugh grant in ‘four weddings and a funeral’
I’m tired as fuck! – clive owens in ‘children of men’
dersankt // February 15, 2007 at 6:28 pm
FUCK!
Kate you just made my day ROTFL.
Fucking hot!
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